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	<title>Comments on: What are the advantages of &#8216;organic&#8217; foods?</title>
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	<link>http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/01/09/what-are-the-advantages-of-organic-foods/</link>
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		<title>By: Paroxysm</title>
		<link>http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/01/09/what-are-the-advantages-of-organic-foods/comment-page-1/#comment-3551</link>
		<dc:creator>Paroxysm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wongablog.djcounsell.org/?p=2267#comment-3551</guid>
		<description>Your research is well founded and duly noted Lil.  How do you feel about the people in our society who simply do not care about the situation.  A good example is the melting of the ice caps and the dying out of the polar bear (what with no ice shelves to hunt etc).  Yet the fact remains that even though Al Gore is playing ball and getting the message out to the wider public,I&#039;ll wager the polar bear will be extinct in two hundred years or sooner.  People just don&#039;t care enough until it&#039;s at their doorstep.  This frustrates many individuals because they cannot understand why people would allow such a thing to happen, but they do and always will.

This of course doesn&#039;t mean you should not do your part for the cause but does it it not frighten you sometimes that perhaps the rest of the world do not subscribe to the same beliefs?  I know I can identify with the apathetic attitude and sometimes even would go so far as to be what is reprimanded as &#039;selfish&#039;.  Yet there is a liberating and exhilarating feeling for me and many others in simply consuming.  Drinking Coca Cola, eating McDonalds etc. with no regard for anyone but Mr. Appetite.

And I hear people asking what those contingency methods are going to be when the fabled apocalypse finally arrives at our doorstep.  Truth is I don&#039;t know but I have faith in the resourcefulness of humans in times of pressure and genuinely believe that when it time, the species will pull back from the brink.  Not very good news for the polar bears-but Coca Cola for us in the meantime.

Yes yes I know this is &#039;inconsiderate&#039; and &#039;selfish&#039; but these moral judgements don&#039;t mean much to those who have decided to practice such a lifestyle because they are much more hermeneutically aware than that.  They know of the consequences and they know that the moral framework will label them selfish...but if the majority of society is acting similarly, such outdated modes of judgement do not count one jot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your research is well founded and duly noted Lil.  How do you feel about the people in our society who simply do not care about the situation.  A good example is the melting of the ice caps and the dying out of the polar bear (what with no ice shelves to hunt etc).  Yet the fact remains that even though Al Gore is playing ball and getting the message out to the wider public,I&#8217;ll wager the polar bear will be extinct in two hundred years or sooner.  People just don&#8217;t care enough until it&#8217;s at their doorstep.  This frustrates many individuals because they cannot understand why people would allow such a thing to happen, but they do and always will.</p>
<p>This of course doesn&#8217;t mean you should not do your part for the cause but does it it not frighten you sometimes that perhaps the rest of the world do not subscribe to the same beliefs?  I know I can identify with the apathetic attitude and sometimes even would go so far as to be what is reprimanded as &#8217;selfish&#8217;.  Yet there is a liberating and exhilarating feeling for me and many others in simply consuming.  Drinking Coca Cola, eating McDonalds etc. with no regard for anyone but Mr. Appetite.</p>
<p>And I hear people asking what those contingency methods are going to be when the fabled apocalypse finally arrives at our doorstep.  Truth is I don&#8217;t know but I have faith in the resourcefulness of humans in times of pressure and genuinely believe that when it time, the species will pull back from the brink.  Not very good news for the polar bears-but Coca Cola for us in the meantime.</p>
<p>Yes yes I know this is &#8216;inconsiderate&#8217; and &#8217;selfish&#8217; but these moral judgements don&#8217;t mean much to those who have decided to practice such a lifestyle because they are much more hermeneutically aware than that.  They know of the consequences and they know that the moral framework will label them selfish&#8230;but if the majority of society is acting similarly, such outdated modes of judgement do not count one jot.</p>
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		<title>By: Lil</title>
		<link>http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/01/09/what-are-the-advantages-of-organic-foods/comment-page-1/#comment-3550</link>
		<dc:creator>Lil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wongablog.djcounsell.org/?p=2267#comment-3550</guid>
		<description>Paroxysm, I agree with what you&#039;re saying about people being able to back up the things they&#039;re supporting, beyond what they read in the papers. But in the case of organic farming techniques, the environmental benefits are definitely supported by extensive scientific research (habitat management is an area of particular interest to me, and my knowledge is based on a lot of time reviewing primary information sources, and experience of working on farms and observing the effects of different farm management techniques).

I agree that it&#039;s down to the individual to decide whether to do anything about it. There&#039;s no way anyone can support all the different causes in the world! But don&#039;t reject something just because a few people don&#039;t have enough evidence to hand to back up what they&#039;re saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paroxysm, I agree with what you&#8217;re saying about people being able to back up the things they&#8217;re supporting, beyond what they read in the papers. But in the case of organic farming techniques, the environmental benefits are definitely supported by extensive scientific research (habitat management is an area of particular interest to me, and my knowledge is based on a lot of time reviewing primary information sources, and experience of working on farms and observing the effects of different farm management techniques).</p>
<p>I agree that it&#8217;s down to the individual to decide whether to do anything about it. There&#8217;s no way anyone can support all the different causes in the world! But don&#8217;t reject something just because a few people don&#8217;t have enough evidence to hand to back up what they&#8217;re saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Paroxysm</title>
		<link>http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/01/09/what-are-the-advantages-of-organic-foods/comment-page-1/#comment-3549</link>
		<dc:creator>Paroxysm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wongablog.djcounsell.org/?p=2267#comment-3549</guid>
		<description>I understand your scepticism with regards to this issue and frequently have to ask many of my friends to hold out their eco-friendly palms as I hand them a plate full of their own ass with regard to the debate on &#039;GM foods&#039;.  It&#039;s actually quite terrifying just how many individuals buy organic food based on little more than &#039;well it&#039;s better for the environment&#039;.  Oh really? Why is that?  No answer.  What&#039;s more any sources you cite fall by the wayside with comments along the lines of &#039;how can it not be better?&#039;, &#039;my eco fascist friend told me THIS&#039; and my favourite (and I&#039;m going full scarecrow here) &#039;I am someone who cares so much about the world and everyone in it that I would rather subscribe to what is seen  by the majority as environmentally sympathetic rather than look at the evidence and counter-arguments&#039;.

Another argument which i happen to think is quite acceptable is that people don&#039;t give a shit and shouldn&#039;t have to.  I can sympathise with that even though I do not subscribe to it.  If someone doesn&#039;t recycle, it&#039;s not because they don&#039;t know about it&#039;s existence, it&#039;s because they don&#039;t care enough.  Who am I to judge them?  We each have areas of our life in which we could be more concerned.  Go ahead and eat your organic food with a plastic fork, go ahead and shop fairtrade in your gap sweater but do NOT lecture those not following suit, because they very well may know more about it than you do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand your scepticism with regards to this issue and frequently have to ask many of my friends to hold out their eco-friendly palms as I hand them a plate full of their own ass with regard to the debate on &#8216;GM foods&#8217;.  It&#8217;s actually quite terrifying just how many individuals buy organic food based on little more than &#8216;well it&#8217;s better for the environment&#8217;.  Oh really? Why is that?  No answer.  What&#8217;s more any sources you cite fall by the wayside with comments along the lines of &#8216;how can it not be better?&#8217;, &#8216;my eco fascist friend told me THIS&#8217; and my favourite (and I&#8217;m going full scarecrow here) &#8216;I am someone who cares so much about the world and everyone in it that I would rather subscribe to what is seen  by the majority as environmentally sympathetic rather than look at the evidence and counter-arguments&#8217;.</p>
<p>Another argument which i happen to think is quite acceptable is that people don&#8217;t give a shit and shouldn&#8217;t have to.  I can sympathise with that even though I do not subscribe to it.  If someone doesn&#8217;t recycle, it&#8217;s not because they don&#8217;t know about it&#8217;s existence, it&#8217;s because they don&#8217;t care enough.  Who am I to judge them?  We each have areas of our life in which we could be more concerned.  Go ahead and eat your organic food with a plastic fork, go ahead and shop fairtrade in your gap sweater but do NOT lecture those not following suit, because they very well may know more about it than you do.</p>
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		<title>By: Lil</title>
		<link>http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/01/09/what-are-the-advantages-of-organic-foods/comment-page-1/#comment-3548</link>
		<dc:creator>Lil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 23:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wongablog.djcounsell.org/?p=2267#comment-3548</guid>
		<description>The hysteria will go on whether people buy organic or not, but biodiversity will continue to decline if they don&#039;t. But yes, small and local is a good thing too =)

Indeed, I think genetic engineering is a rather major campaign victim (as proof, &quot;GM&quot; is actually a media mistake, &lt;i&gt;everything&lt;/i&gt; is genetically modified - unfortunately the phrase has now stuck =P..). I definitely support it as a principle. If managed properly (ie. not all about the profits), it could have a whole range of fabulous applications, and many of the negative impacts (such as gene transfer into weeds, or &quot;terminator genes&quot; affecting poor farmers) would be avoided/minimised. However, there are still associated risks (beyond &quot;argh frankenfood will kill us all&quot; I mean), so it needs careful management.

There was a good long-term scientific trial of GM crops in the UK a couple of years back - I&#039;ll have to look up the details.

In terms of GM and organic specifically, I think it&#039;s because pesticide/herbicide-resistant crops are a major focus of GM, hence &lt;i&gt;encouraging&lt;/i&gt; increased use of pesticides and broad spectrum herbicides. The main pest-resistant crop type is Bt, and several pest species have shown resistance to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The hysteria will go on whether people buy organic or not, but biodiversity will continue to decline if they don&#8217;t. But yes, small and local is a good thing too =)</p>
<p>Indeed, I think genetic engineering is a rather major campaign victim (as proof, &#8220;GM&#8221; is actually a media mistake, <i>everything</i> is genetically modified &#8211; unfortunately the phrase has now stuck =P..). I definitely support it as a principle. If managed properly (ie. not all about the profits), it could have a whole range of fabulous applications, and many of the negative impacts (such as gene transfer into weeds, or &#8220;terminator genes&#8221; affecting poor farmers) would be avoided/minimised. However, there are still associated risks (beyond &#8220;argh frankenfood will kill us all&#8221; I mean), so it needs careful management.</p>
<p>There was a good long-term scientific trial of GM crops in the UK a couple of years back &#8211; I&#8217;ll have to look up the details.</p>
<p>In terms of GM and organic specifically, I think it&#8217;s because pesticide/herbicide-resistant crops are a major focus of GM, hence <i>encouraging</i> increased use of pesticides and broad spectrum herbicides. The main pest-resistant crop type is Bt, and several pest species have shown resistance to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/01/09/what-are-the-advantages-of-organic-foods/comment-page-1/#comment-3547</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wongablog.djcounsell.org/?p=2267#comment-3547</guid>
		<description>Yes, I did pick up on that - I just wanted to point out the problems with the whole health angle in a post here. I can appreciate that these dubious claims aren&#039;t enough to reject it outright, but I&#039;d still like to know how they justify the anti-GM aspect. They could grow larger yields of &#039;naturally&#039; pest-resistant crops with GM techniques (after appropriate testing, of course), but it&#039;s rejected outright. I feel uncomfortable supporting this kind of hysteria, but I can see it&#039;s a matter of weighing the pros and cons. Still, small, local farms sound like a much better bet to me :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I did pick up on that &#8211; I just wanted to point out the problems with the whole health angle in a post here. I can appreciate that these dubious claims aren&#8217;t enough to reject it outright, but I&#8217;d still like to know how they justify the anti-GM aspect. They could grow larger yields of &#8216;naturally&#8217; pest-resistant crops with GM techniques (after appropriate testing, of course), but it&#8217;s rejected outright. I feel uncomfortable supporting this kind of hysteria, but I can see it&#8217;s a matter of weighing the pros and cons. Still, small, local farms sound like a much better bet to me <img src='http://wongablog.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Lil</title>
		<link>http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/01/09/what-are-the-advantages-of-organic-foods/comment-page-1/#comment-3546</link>
		<dc:creator>Lil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wongablog.djcounsell.org/?p=2267#comment-3546</guid>
		<description>One of the main points of my post was &lt;b&gt;ignore all the health stuff&lt;/b&gt;. With the current status of farming, the (definite) environmental benefits are a more-than-adequate reason to support organic food.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_organic_farming&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Organic farming originated as a response to the shift to modern intensive farming&lt;/a&gt; (and the associated wide-ranging environmental impacts). The procedures used in organic farming are all principally to do with environmental benefits (pesticides are only used as a last resort). Just because people have latched on to possible health benefits doesn&#039;t mean you should reject the whole system (although if there &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; any health benefits, I&#039;ll be sorted ;)..).

Specific farm management techniques are definitely the key in terms of impacts on wildlife (I&#039;ve seen the proof in real life), but will only work if enough farms take part, to provide large, connected habitats. At the moment, supporting organic farms is still the best option - I&#039;m willing Defra to get their &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.defra.gov.uk/erdp/schemes/es/default.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;environmental stewardship schemes&lt;/a&gt; right, but it&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6060942.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;not all going according to plan yet&lt;/a&gt;. Also, there are other issues such as watercourse contamination and soil quality to consider.

In terms of animal welfare - &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/organic/policy/research/pdf/env-impacts2.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Defra says&lt;/a&gt;: &quot;...intensive pig and poultry units are not permitted in organic farming. This means that organic systems avoid the large-scale production units with a heavy reliance on imported feed and limited land on which to spread the manure (Table 1.6). For poultry, the UKROFS state that poultry must be reared in open-range conditions and cannot be kept in cages... Also, all mammals (i.e. including pigs) must have access to pasturage or an open-air exercise area or an open-air run which may be partially covered&quot;

Choosing food can indeed be a hideously complicated process - particularly as large companies are now buying into the whole &#039;organic&#039; thing. If people care about animal welfare, environment etc. the best way of covering as many factors as possible is probably to support small, local farms (through farm shops and farmers&#039; markets). And get an organic vegetable box delivered ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the main points of my post was <b>ignore all the health stuff</b>. With the current status of farming, the (definite) environmental benefits are a more-than-adequate reason to support organic food.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_organic_farming" rel="nofollow">Organic farming originated as a response to the shift to modern intensive farming</a> (and the associated wide-ranging environmental impacts). The procedures used in organic farming are all principally to do with environmental benefits (pesticides are only used as a last resort). Just because people have latched on to possible health benefits doesn&#8217;t mean you should reject the whole system (although if there <i>are</i> any health benefits, I&#8217;ll be sorted <img src='http://wongablog.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> ..).</p>
<p>Specific farm management techniques are definitely the key in terms of impacts on wildlife (I&#8217;ve seen the proof in real life), but will only work if enough farms take part, to provide large, connected habitats. At the moment, supporting organic farms is still the best option &#8211; I&#8217;m willing Defra to get their <a href="http://www.defra.gov.uk/erdp/schemes/es/default.htm" rel="nofollow">environmental stewardship schemes</a> right, but it&#8217;s <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6060942.stm" rel="nofollow">not all going according to plan yet</a>. Also, there are other issues such as watercourse contamination and soil quality to consider.</p>
<p>In terms of animal welfare &#8211; <a href="http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/organic/policy/research/pdf/env-impacts2.pdf" rel="nofollow">Defra says</a>: &#8220;&#8230;intensive pig and poultry units are not permitted in organic farming. This means that organic systems avoid the large-scale production units with a heavy reliance on imported feed and limited land on which to spread the manure (Table 1.6). For poultry, the UKROFS state that poultry must be reared in open-range conditions and cannot be kept in cages&#8230; Also, all mammals (i.e. including pigs) must have access to pasturage or an open-air exercise area or an open-air run which may be partially covered&#8221;</p>
<p>Choosing food can indeed be a hideously complicated process &#8211; particularly as large companies are now buying into the whole &#8216;organic&#8217; thing. If people care about animal welfare, environment etc. the best way of covering as many factors as possible is probably to support small, local farms (through farm shops and farmers&#8217; markets). And get an organic vegetable box delivered <img src='http://wongablog.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/01/09/what-are-the-advantages-of-organic-foods/comment-page-1/#comment-3545</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 21:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wongablog.djcounsell.org/?p=2267#comment-3545</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s one I hadn&#039;t seen. I can&#039;t find much info online - do pesticides really use that much oil, relative to the rest of the UK? I can appreciate that every little helps, but I have a hard time believing it would make much difference relative to petrol etc....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s one I hadn&#8217;t seen. I can&#8217;t find much info online &#8211; do pesticides really use that much oil, relative to the rest of the UK? I can appreciate that every little helps, but I have a hard time believing it would make much difference relative to petrol etc&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/01/09/what-are-the-advantages-of-organic-foods/comment-page-1/#comment-3544</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wongablog.djcounsell.org/?p=2267#comment-3544</guid>
		<description>The real issue with pesticides and fertilisers is the oil required to produce them. Organic agriculture is vastly superior in terms of its ecological footprint, requiring much less energy.

Nevermind the media-led waffle about health risks, climate change and peak oil are reasons enough to promote organic agriculture where it is appropriate!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real issue with pesticides and fertilisers is the oil required to produce them. Organic agriculture is vastly superior in terms of its ecological footprint, requiring much less energy.</p>
<p>Nevermind the media-led waffle about health risks, climate change and peak oil are reasons enough to promote organic agriculture where it is appropriate!</p>
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